Happy Birthday, Data Stories!

Hi, everyone. Data stories number 18. And. Hey, Morris. And believe it or not, we have been doing this. This thing for one year now.

One year. Amazing.

Amazing. Amazing. So exactly one year ago, we published our first episode.

Who knew one year could feel so long?

Yeah. I cannot believe it. I mean, it's so fast.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah.

But, you know, a lot happened in between as well, so. Yeah, it's both fast and slow.

Yeah.

You know, it's an episode, so we didn't quite live up to the two weeks rhythm. Yeah, but, you know, we need to take vacations too, right?

We are almost there.

I mean, I think it's all that were really long. So.

So, let me see. We published two in February, 2 in March, 1 in April, and May was lazy. One in June. No, two in June, 1 in July, 1 in August. You can see nothing in May.

Did we like skip May or what?

No, one in May. 2 in June, 2 in June, 1 in July, 1 in August. You can see the summer effect. Yeah, but, I mean, it's good. It's good.

You know, three weeks worked out fine, I think. I mean, two weeks is a bit tough on everybody. I mean, who can stand to listen to us every two weeks?

Yeah, that would be boring.

That's the other thing. We have to think of our listeners as well.

Yeah. And that's the first time after a long time that it's me and you and it's only audio.

Yeah, probably like for a year.

Maybe.

I think we started out like that and then we. Yeah, we just had so many guests. I mean, that was great, too. But it's also nice to do a one on one episode again.

I still believe that our first episode has the best title ever. I think you came up with this.

Title, exuberant animated data kitsch. Yeah. We should have called the whole podcast like that. I think we had the idea too late.

Yeah, yeah. We should keep inventing titles like this. That's more. That's fun.

This might be a good plan for the next year to have more funnier titles.

Compare this with Immortal with Stefan and studio NAND.

Yeah, but, you know, the second one was already also quite descriptive. It was called visualization contests, marathons, challenges, awards, etcetera. I mean, that's not that inventive.

Yeah, yeah.

So our highlight was the first episode. After that, things went clearly downhill.

Well, you can actually see this from the stats.

Yeah, that's true. No, actually, our most popular episode was episode number five with Andy Kirk.

Andy Kirk. Andy. Wow.

Andy. Hi, Andy. Thanks for sending some of your glamour over here for at least one episode.

But we actually had Andy more than once.

Yeah, so had.

But we had the peak only once. So we have to check whether it depends on Andy. On whether it depends on. Maybe it depends on what we discussed there. So maybe it's not the Andy effect.

Yeah. So you mean it's not a scientific experiment we did.

Yeah, it's true. So anyway, in case it's not clear, what we are gonna do in this episode is basically going through the list of past episodes and comment on that. It's gonna be a kind of carousel. We didn't come up with any better idea than this for the data stories birthday.

Yeah, it's true. So anyway, in case it's not clear, what we are gonna do in this episode is basically going through the list of past episodes and comment on that. It's gonna be a kind of carousel. We didn't come up with any better idea than this for the data stories birthday.

Or for Valentine's Day.

Or for Valentine. I think it's really nice. So I never realized that actually we started on Valentine's Day.

Yeah, that's. That's so funny. I mean, didn't we have better things to do? Honestly, no, but I think we didn't record the first episode on Valentine's Day, but we published it there to our defense. But now that's today we're sitting there.

That's possible.

We should take care of our wives.

Yeah.

Rather than record podcasts.

Anyway. Okay, let's start with episode one. What did we talk about in episode one? I don't even remember.

Anyway. Okay, let's start with episode one. What did we talk about in episode one? I don't even remember.

I think we talked about all these. You know, I was ranting a bit about these particle based animations of world maps and things flying around and trails, glow effects, this type of thing.

Yeah, I think that's still totally unsolved. Right?

Yeah. But I think. I think it was sort of a fashion that a bit that went away in a way. I have the feeling. So I wouldn't rant the same way now.

Yeah. But, you know, I'm still totally fascinated by animation. I think it's a. It's a. It's an aspect of visualization that is not well understood well enough yet.

Yeah.

I mean, animation fascinates me a lot. And I think. I think we have to. We have to investigate much closer what we can do well with animation. Because I'm convinced. Convinced that there are things we can do really well with animation.

Sure. I mean, it's been done. And I think what also turned out over the years that these short animated explanatory clips can work quite well. So the New York Times did quite a few of these. And my sense is also that with increased mobile use and, like, in between use of visualization, that these short animations, they can be quite effective. That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I wasn't ranting so much about these sort of narrative things, but more the ones where you have a development over time and then you just have a lot of particles moving.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're really fascinated while you watch it. And afterwards it's all gone. You know, it's like I said that recently about that Twitter visualization, you know, the tweet ping thing. So you watch. You watch it, it's like crazy. And you think you're consuming so much of interesting stuff, and then you close the browser tab and nothing's left. You know, it's like it evaporates, basically. And I think that's still true to some degree.

I agree. I agree. I totally agree.

Anyways, number two, we were ranting about, or you were ranting about marathons and challenges and awards.

It's fun because looking back, that was a bit exaggerated, I think at the time.

There were quite a few crappy awards or also dubious ones, you know, that had dubious terms of conditions until when.

You decided to participate to some of those. Right.

Yeah. Afterwards, things somehow got a bit better and we had the EQ Librium, which really upset you. I mean, your pulse always went up, like 20 points when you were talking about that.

Maybe that was a bit too harsh, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. And then this, this robbery, you know, that spotlight of profitability didn't win.

Yeah, that was crazy. And I still think that was a fantastic piece of visualization.

And you know what, Christina, she won more prizes. I think she won a couple of challenges in the meantime, at least the OECD one with a piece that I didn't understand but which looked good, really. But I didn't get it quite fully, honestly. And another second place. And actually, I've been working with her in the meantime, so.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I did a little project right before Christmas with her for World Economic forum, and we might do another one.

So is there anything public yet?

Yeah, we could link to it. I mean, it's not spectacular. It's just solid infographics for a print report, but I can dig it out.

Good, good. So do you think that during this year something changed in the way these contests and prizes are organized and given.

Good, good. So do you think that during this year something changed in the way these contests and prizes are organized and given.

You're setting me up here.

No, I'm serious. I mean, in a way, I've seen less of them.

I mean, I was really impressed by the visualizing marathon this year. There were like really over a thousand students worldwide taking part, and the entries were really great.

I mean, yeah, I agree. I agree.

So I was really impressed there. And I felt there were much less of these pointless designers. Something funny, contests. And we can do whatever we want with it. And you get like, I don't know, some hideous prize. So I haven't seen these anymore. So I think the issue is sorted.

Good. Done.

Yeah, mission accomplished. Congratulations.

Just one episode.

Well done and well done.

It was worth it.

Super.

Enrico saved the world again against prices and contests.

Okay, number three.

Number three. How do you evaluate visualization? This looks academic to me. Maybe I was proposing this.

Yeah, I think it was a boring episode.

That's where we have a huge valley in the trends. Right?

There were a few good. And now that I read the recap, there were a few good points there, I think.

Yeah. And we've been organizing our, what did I want to say, our workshop this week last year, the belief workshop, that is about evaluation, visualization. And we organize this every two years and it was quite successful again. So this is such a nice, never ending topic. You can always add something new there. So. Yeah, and I think it's important, but.

Do you feel, is there progress in that area? Like, do people use different methods now or do people look at different things in the evaluations?

I think it's a big topic. I think we've been, at least from the academic point of view, we have improved a lot. A lot. I mean, now we are in the situation where for certain kind of contributions, if you don't have a proper evaluation, it's very hard for someone to get accepted. So I think that's already some kind of progress. What I haven't seen lately is more innovation in the way visualization is evaluated. I would like to see more innovation. So basically the most solid stuff is still running a controlled experiment, which is fine, but I think we should try to do something else. Oh, by the way, have you seen this highly criticized evaluation doing brain scan?

No, I missed to read that. I had it in my list and totally forgot to read it. What was it about?

So, long story short, my friend Rem Ko Chang from Tufte University, he ran this very nice experiment comparing the infamous bar chart versus versus pie chart. And they pretended to evaluate this according to, by using a special brain scan technique. I don't remember exactly the name of this technique, but basically I think it's MRI, probably. Yeah, exactly, something like that. And they claim that this technique is able to measure the workload, the human workload, when they are performing some tasks. And one of the findings is that basically in terms of workload, there's no difference between bar chart and pie charts. But even more interesting than that is the fact. I think that's the most interesting thing, is that people behave differently. So some people have a higher workload with pie charts, and some other people have a higher workload with. What did I say? I don't remember the other one. Okay.

Yeah.

But this was heavily, heavily criticized.

Like a really conclusive experience.

It's not conclusive. Yeah, I think that. So I didn't read the paper yet, and I didn't fully read the criticism from Stephen Few. But my feeling is that what is. So the main focus of this research is more trying to see whether it's feasible to evaluate visualization through this method.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Yeah. Rather than saying anything conclusive on pie chart versus bar charts. Right.

Yeah. So I think that's the problem is with such a result, it could also mean they're measuring the wrong thing or they're measuring nothing at all. You know, it's very hard to.

Absolutely, absolutely. But I've been briefly talking with Remko a few days ago, and what he told me is that basically, one of his co authors is really a leader in the. In this field. He's a guy who's been studying.

Yeah. Tufts is very well known in the cognitive science area, so they're really top notch. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing.

So, basically, this is what I'm saying about evaluation. I would like to see much more, many more of this kind of studies where people really try to do innovative stuff.

Mm hmm. Measure the pulse of Stephen Few when he sees a surface. Yeah.

I mean.

Adrenaline levels.

I mean, honestly, I think. I think he's super smart, but the way he writes this kind of rants, I still have some problems with it. I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, sure. He's just rude. I mean, sorry, but I really liked his slow, slow data article. I was.

Sure, sure. Me too.

That was what was really good. So I think he's a smart guy. He's just being rude.

Yeah.

He likes to provoke, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.

Anyways, we're diverging here. How do you say that?

No, how do you say diverging? Yeah, but diverging to episode four. Four. I think that was really successful.

Malofiej. Yeah, that was Malofiej. We were so, you know, Andy and I, we were just coming back from Malofiej was still totally under the influence of that crazy event, and.

Yeah.

And it was a lot of. I mean, we went through all of the people. I mean, that was a lot of material, basically.

I think Malofiej was one of the biggest events in 2012. Right?

Yeah. For me, it was really important. And, I mean, I think for all who were involved with it, it was like Andy and Andrew and so on. It was really a big eye opener. Also, Robert, I think also for Robert, it changed his view on the whole infographics scene quite a bit as well, and.

Yeah.

Was fantastic.

Yeah. And I think it's the first time that people from, I don't know, kind of like data journalism infographics meet with people that come more from the infobird side. Right?

Yeah. I mean, or at least. Yeah, it's been more of that. I think they started to do that. Yeah. But you're right. I mean, also Alberto, I think there was much Alberto Cairo's initiative, and I think he. He said that was really also. Yeah. The years before, it wasn't like that. And that he wanted to bridge these worlds a bit. And I think he was quite successful. If you think, like, how it played out later, you know, like how the year played out, I think there were stronger bonds than between the scenes, so.

So do you think they're gonna. They're gonna organize the same thing this year?

Yeah, yeah, it's every year. I mean, it's. It was called Malofiej 20 because it was the 20th edition, basically.

No, but I mean, do you think we are gonna have, again, nice mix of people.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know who's going. So there's Jan Willem Tulp.

Oh, great.

There is Fernanda Viegas. There is Stephanie Posavec.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, yeah. So they continue to invite the good, the tradition. No, no, I love that. It's great.

Okay. Lots of these people was in our guest list. Right?

Exactly. You heard it here first.

What else? What else? What did we do then?

Another one with Andy. Absolutely.

Another one with Andy. Oh, shame on us.

And that's the most, as you said, the most successful one. How to learn data visualization with Andy Kirk.

Okay.

That was really good. I mean, he told us a lot about how he does his courses and know what he thinks is most important. I think a lot of that stuff is really still valid.

Yeah. You know, from my point of view, this is still one of the biggest challenges we have in our field because we've been focusing on. So from our side, the academic side, we've been focusing on doing research. Right. Practitioners have been focusing on doing their stuff. Right. On producing stuff. And very, very few people focused on the problem of teaching other people how to do visualization correctly. And at the same time, I think that's one of the biggest needs we have right now. And for the first time, we have very nice sources, very nice books, very nice people willing to teach. I mean, that's another big trend this year from my point of view. So we have, Andy has been teaching all around the world. We have Alberto Cairo, who's been, who's been teaching through his. What's the name of his course? I don't remember.

Yeah. He does it online.

Large scale MOOC. Yeah, MOOC. And what else? I think Katie Burner is now. Katie Burner is doing the same thing now. And that's big. I think that's big.

Everybody wants to learn it. I think we should stop that teaching thing. I think it's going to be too many people.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's getting too crowded on that beach here. Stop doing that.

I agree. I agree. And right now I'm teaching, which is.

I'm teaching, too. I just had yesterday my first lecture in a new course, so I should shut up. It's fun. Teaching is just, it's a very rewarding thing. You know, I always say I'm a bad teacher, and I am, actually. I know that. But. But still, I enjoy it. It's a bit like guitar playing for me.

Yeah.

I'm really bad at it, too, but I sort of like it.

Yeah. And look, for my course, as I was saying, as I was telling to you before starting the episode in my course, I'm using the draft of Tamara Munzner's book. And for me, it's.

Wow.

This book is the book I've always dreamed of. I mean, it's kind of like a perfect summary of visualization design. And it's the kind of book that I never. That, I mean, we have, we have quite a good number of visualization related books in our bookshelves, but I never had a book like this before. One book that is totally focused on the design techniques and principles of information visualization and the fact that she's breaking down the problems in very nice, very well organized set of tools and problems.

So, yeah, she's super precise and super clear, simply. I enjoy that about her. She has a clear head.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't know exactly when this book is gonna be published, but I think for me, that's gonna be a big event because this book is different from every other book I've seen so far.

Yeah, sounds good. There's a draft online so we can link to it.

There's a draft online. Yeah, we should.

Yeah, we should. Definitely. Okay.

Yeah, we should. Definitely. Okay.

Episode six. Episode six on food. How could we call an episode on food?

That was a fun one. I remember I was pretty hungover, or was I ill or so. But I was in Manchester when we recorded it, and I was just sitting in my apartment bed. I sort of remember that.

Yeah.

And that was a nice one.

That was a nice one.

In fact, you know, I talked about the data cuisine idea in this episode, and in September we made it happen.

So, yeah, visualizing food is cool. We should actually keep doing this thing and maybe doing on something else. Right.

I like that. Yeah. Just to talk about specific topics, you know, outside of visualization, you know, from visualization angle. I really liked it. Yeah. So maybe we shouldn't have so many data vis guys on the show, but maybe experts from other areas. Could be interesting.

Could be interesting.

I have a philosopher, biologist.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, there's a lot of vis in biology. It's crazy.

Yeah, sure.

Did you ever participate to any of these conferences? I did. It's crazy because you have all in a sudden you realize that there are thousands and thousands of biologists who do visualization by themselves, and they are pretty advanced. Anyway, episode seven, color caller with Gregor ice. That was a great one. That was a great one. I mean, I learned something during, during that episode. And Gregory.

Did you ever participate to any of these conferences? I did. It's crazy because you have all in a sudden you realize that there are thousands and thousands of biologists who do visualization by themselves, and they are pretty advanced. Anyway, episode seven, color caller with Gregor ice. That was a great one. That was a great one. I mean, I learned something during, during that episode. And Gregory.

Yeah. Probably, like, information density wise, that's the most informative one we've ever done, I think.

Yeah. And I still think that if you want to learn visualization, you should listen to this episode. It's part of it, right?

Yeah.

You get so much information about how to use color properly and all the nuances of using color properly that it's. It's really, really good.

Yeah.

Episode eight, the first interview, I think the first real interview, in a sense.

Yes. I mean, with Andy and Gregor, it's been more like. I don't know. Yeah. Like a conversation. And with Jeff, it was much more like, okay, we have Jeff on the show. What do we ask him?

I think we have a little peak here in our.

Yeah, that was a very popular one as well.

It was a very popular one, of course. And I've heard, so after we published this episode, I've heard from many people listening to what Jeff had to say was. Was great. Was just great.

Yeah.

So he's really a very guy.

Yeah. I really like, he's so eloquent and such a nice guy, and he knows so much. He's really great.

Yeah, yeah.

I wonder how Trifacta is doing his.

Company oh, that's a good question. Yeah, that's a good question. Probably great. I would be surprised of the opposite.

But we haven't seen a project or anything. Probably they either just, you know, building up stuff and getting started, or they do a lot of internal stuff, or they are so busy that they don't even have time to update their portfolio, which would be great.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Who knows? Well, I'm sure we'll hear something from you.

I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Then we had what, episode nine, bridging academia in industry with Danyel. Danyel Fisher from Microsoft. So here we've been discussing how to bridge academia in industry. That's still. That's still hard. I think that's still hard. We had a. We had a few interesting people from. From the practitioner side at Visweek this year. So I think we. We moved some little baby steps, but there is still a lot to do here.

I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm sure. Then we had what, episode nine, bridging academia in industry with Danyel. Danyel Fisher from Microsoft. So here we've been discussing how to bridge academia in industry. That's still. That's still hard. I think that's still hard. We had a. We had a few interesting people from. From the practitioner side at Visweek this year. So I think we. We moved some little baby steps, but there is still a lot to do here.

Cool. Yeah. Let's see how it plays out. Next time is. Next time is the Wiz conference. Is it in Paris already or is it. So the.

This conference will be in Paris in 2014.

I'm 14. And this year it's still in Seattle. Or where is it?

No, this year is in Atlanta.

Atlanta. Okay.

Yeah.

That's at least closer.

Yeah. Episode ten, we had Stephanie Posavec.

Stephanie. Yeah, that was a good one too. She's fantastic. I mean, Stephanie. You gotta love Stephanie.

Everybody loves Stephanie, right? I'm still waiting for a poster from her to put in my. In my office room.

Yeah. Somehow nothing happens, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. I should actually sent her the recording of our episode and with title, kind of like still waiting.

Yeah. Just that sound snippet where she promises that. Yeah. But she gave me some consulting today on a poster project I'm doing myself, so I won't complain because I really appreciated her advice on that, so I won't complain.

And this handcrafted data thing pairs up very well with the thing you said before about slow data initiative. I think that's gonna be another interesting thing this year.

Yeah. Now and I see more and more people like doing really interesting things in this direction.

Yeah. Yeah. Then we had the most terrible episode. Data stories number eleven on email money. Most.

Don't insult my friends here, please.

Why did we do that on Emoto. Emoto, your project together with Stefan from studio NAND. That was a cool one. I actually showed a couple of screenshots in my class during one of my last lectures. And that's cool. That's a cool project.

Nice nice. Yeah, I still like it, too.

Yeah. Then we did what Moritz Alberto.

Episode twelve.

Alberto. Alberto.

That was, that was a good one. Yeah. Alberto is also very eloquent. I think. You know, he's simply good to talk to.

East and energetic. He's energetic. And I think that the functional art is another one of the big things that happened last year. I mean, it's a great book highlight for me, too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Great, great.

Yeah. I saw his talk at Malofiej, and I was like, I wasn't, like, fully sold. I was like, okay, he knows. You know, he knows what he's talking about, but I wasn't, like, fully sold. But then I read the book, and I really appreciate his perspective now. Like, yeah, the very information, graphics, news design, heavy perspective and just stressing the points you make and the story and so on. So I. He does that really nicely, and he illustrates nicely what you can do to achieve that.

Do you know anything about this course, whether. I think he had a huge amount of students. Right.

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I received a guest access from him. Thanks, Alberto. And because they were discussing one of my graphics, and so I was getting curious, and so he sent me the guest account. And it's crazy. It's like hundreds of students, you know, they're in the forums and, and they all like having opinions and writing stuff and creating graphics, and it's like a huge, it's like a beehive, you know, I think he has thousands of students. And it's crazy.

It's crazy.

And do you know, it's really interesting. And, for instance, so they had the task to critique one out of five visualizations or so, and they're writing really long, detailed critiques and responses to each other, and there's a lot going on. I was really impressed. It's crazy.

It's crazy. Do you know if the course is organized around the content of the book or is more.

I haven't really checked. I just, I just looked in the forums, but I should definitely also check the syllabus and what he put up in materials. I haven't really.

Okay.

But I guess it will be roughly.

Roughly.

Roughly the bookstore. Yeah, I mean, it will make sense.

At least make sense. Makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Then we did what? Oh, an episode from this week. Totally improvised. That was me together with Jerome Cuquier and Andrew van de Moere. And I think we've been talking about what happened, the highlights of this week 2012. And apart from the highlights, I think for me, that was a big achievement. Because I never managed to record or write anything on my blog during a conference. So the mere fact that I managed to record an episode there, for me, it's a big achievement. It's a big, big win.

It was nice. I think we should do that more often because it's like when you're recording directly from the place where something happens, it's a different vibe, simply.

Yeah, exactly. Because when you come back, you already lose a lot of the energy that. So it's completely different. So I hope this was a good episode.

It was fun for me because it was the first time I could listen to it and not know what you're talking about. I was, for once, a data stories listener, which was fun.

Yeah. We should actually do the opposite sometime. I would love to listen to data stories.

I can record a few secret episodes without you.

Yeah, you could. You could. And then I think we had this crazy idea of using a hangout. Google hangout.

Terrible idea.

So whose idea was that? Who knows? Well, but I mean, we are here to experiment as well, right? So we've been experimenting with this tool. And the first time wasn't that great, I think. But I thought.

I think the conversation was really nice.

The conversation was really nice. But technically speaking, we had so many troubles that we couldn't even record the video. And, well, we did, but we were.

Just, like, recording one guy.

So we had Benjamin Wiederkehr all the time in the video. I'm sure that Benjamin, if he's listening to this episode, is going to laugh.

I might or might not have still a copy of that on my hard drive, just to make sure, you know.

Yeah, we still have it. So, Benjamin, that was great. Yeah. But the hangout itself was cool because we basically asked people to join, and we didn't know until the end who was gonna join. So I think that was a fantastic experiment and we had very nice people joining. I mean, that was cool. We should actually repeat that sometime in the future. Let's see, let's see. So if you're listening to the episode, let us know. Let us know if you want to do another data stories and gout. We promised that this time is gonna be okay with the video. I think we learned how to use it now, actually, we didn't learn, but.

Accidentally, it seemed to have worked the next few times. But, I mean, we are still not quite sure what actually went wrong. Somewhat related to the cameraman app.

So.

Don't touch the cameraman.

Don't touch the cameraman. Yeah, that's the rule. Don't touch.

Just don't click around.

Then we had Robert. Robert. Robert Kosara.

Yeah, that was a good one, too.

I think that was a good one, too. I really liked it.

We had only good episodes, so you.

Can distinguish only between fantastic and awesome.

Yeah, large. Very large. Super large.

So Robert. Robert was a great guest, and I think Robert is doing great stuff right now.

Yeah, I like to have him back and talk about narratives and stuff.

Absolutely. We should do that.

We only touched on that, and I think we should do that. Maybe around tapestry conference. Will you be there?

I will be there. I will be there.

Maybe you should record something with him there or other people.

I cannot promise anything, but let's see.

Because you have to.

Yeah, let's see. But definitely we have to invite Robert again and doing. And do an episode more focused on narrative and storytelling and this kind of stuff. But I think Robert is a very interesting person. And yes, this interesting profile. He's been academia for a long time, and now he moved to Tableau, and then he's been focusing more on the untraditional infobeez. And now he's moving back. Not back. He's actually moving to storytelling narratives and this kind of stuff. And he has a very nice blog. So he's really a nice person.

Although I was, as I said on the episode, a bit afraid of him before I went to him because he also has this strong Internet personality.

Oh, yeah, we discussed about that.

Like, Stephen Few. Yeah. But he has become milder over the years.

But I think he's nicer in person. Totally.

He's super sweet.

So I've actually heard that Stephen Few is much, much nicer in person. I actually never met him.

We should have him on the show.

We should have him on the show sometime.

We should have Eddie. We should have Stephen fue.

Yeah.

Just to check them out next year.

Next year. Then what?

Then we had number 16. That was a review of the last year. I think that was a very successful one, too, with Andy, Brian Connor, Andrew van der Mure. Yeah, that's good.

That was good. Yeah. A reflection on what was big in 2012. Yeah. I no longer remember what we said there, but there must be something interesting.

Same old thing. Stories, narratives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

D3 New York Times. Stuff like that.

Stuff like that. Stuff like that. And then we have the last one. This is one of my favorites, I have to say. Data sculptures. And by the way, during the last couple of ones, we've been using the hangout successfully. Right. So that was good.

Yeah. So the last two ones were. I think so. But you know what? I was listening to the audio, you know, because I do the chapters and so on, and it sort of hurts the audio because.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, there a, it's the quality, and b, it's also people are sort of. They're much more concerned with what happens on screen. And, you know, what happens to people when they are, like, looking at a computer and clicking around. They sort of. They have these gaps in the middle of a sentence, you know?

Yeah, yeah, that's weird. That's weird. I don't know how to solve that. But at the same time, it's true that the hangout, in some cases, provides much more, many more details. And, I mean.

I mean, for this episode, it was perfect.

Yeah.

And also, a conversation, like, with four people or five, you cannot do with audio only. I mean, everybody knows these telephone conferences that are really a pain. You know, that's like. Yeah, because if you don't have any cues on who's gonna talk next or, you know, who's. Who's, like, able to talk right now, it's.

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, what I was saying is that I really love data sculptures is probably one of my favorites.

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, what I was saying is that I really love data sculptures is probably one of my favorites.

Yeah.

I love the fact that they gave these nice demos with this 3d stuff. That was total fun for me. I was actually thinking going back to YouTube and give it a look, because I was thinking about asking to these guys to send me if I can have one copy of these nice toys. I would love to have the bar charts. Yeah, the bar charts or one of the other ones.

Maybe they should make a limited edition, too.

Limited edition.

The original bar chart from the study. I think you should design your own little thing and have it printed. There's loads of opportunities in New York.

Yeah. This is what I was thinking about. There are so many opportunities here, and I already checked, and there are so many labs where I can go and.

Exactly.

Yeah, I would like to do that.

Do it yourself, DIY. That's the spirit. Cool. So what do we do this year? I don't know.

Do it yourself, DIY. That's the spirit. Cool. So what do we do this year? I don't know.

I mean, we should ask. So what do you guys think we should do? If you have any ideas, send us an email or a tweet or a comment or whatever, or call us.

That's a good idea.

Please. We should give our numbers. What do we do? I don't know. Moritz, what do you think? What should we do? Should we just keep doing our shit or what?

I think it's good if the two of us have in between always a little episode, because I like that. Just to talk to you. I think that's great. But generally, I'd like to have the guests and keep on with the interviews because, I mean, for me, that's always been the most interesting part to have all these interesting people on the show. And I can think of maybe 1020 people I'd like to talk to.

Yeah, we probably have a list that can fill up another two or three years, right?

Yeah, if.

Yeah. At the same pace.

If the people want to.

Yeah, but we should try to target some people that. Some big names or stuff like that. I mean, sure. That would be fun. That would be fun.

Well, definitely do that.

And I think we should keep. I mean, I would like to keep experimenting with the Google and gout. It's not clear to me whether people like it or not. So. Yeah.

Also asked on Facebook, and the response was really mixed. So some people say, yeah, switch over to video completely. Others say, ditch the video, stick with audio. Others say, make it like this. Like that. You know, mix it a little. So it's. Yeah, the people are as undecided as we are, and so I guess we'll. Let's just mix it up a little. Yeah, I like both.

If you guys have any opinion, let us know. I mean, if you think that. That using the Google and gout is total crap, let us know. Or if you are super excited, let us know as well. And, yeah, I think we don't really.

Know how you listen to it. I mean, I've heard from many people that they listen to it in the car, and I think that makes sense, you know, like, so if I was driving a lot, I would definitely listen to a lot of podcasts.

Yeah.

Personally, I listen to podcasts when I do, like, house, housework, basically. Dishes or, you know, washing or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah, it seems.

And often in the evening as well. Like, you know, just to. Yeah, just to relax a little. But I don't know how other people listen to podcasts or watch them, you know.

And I think, another thing, again, if you guys have in mind any. Any name that you would like to ask to invite in the podcast or you want to invite yourself for any reason, let us know. I mean, we have a full new year to fill up. Yeah. And I think we should keep the. I think the pace was okay. Kind of okay. I mean, for me, it's a big, big achievement that we made it. I mean, doing 18 episodes in one year and keep doing them sometime a little later, sometime a little sooner. It's great. I mean, I mean, it's great.

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy with that, too. So, I mean, we set out to do every two weeks, but as I said, I mean, now it's been maybe every three. I think that's totally fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to say that I totally neglected, as a consequence, my blog.

But I mean, basically we haven't written anything on the blog since we started.

Yeah, in a way, it looks like kind of switched from the blog to data stories, but that's not true. I never planned for that. It's just happened.

Yeah. And I think data stories is different from what you did on your blog.

And I mean, honestly, doing data stories is so much easier. And in a way, it's so much more fun. It's much more fun. But that doesn't mean that I don't like blogging. So let's see. Let's see what is going to happen. Yeah.

I mean, there's a different quality also to a good written text.

Okay. I think we don't have anything else to say. Just happy birthday. I can sing happy birthday in German. In Italian. In English and French. I can try.

Yeah, you can do all of that.

So happy birthday to you. And then I can do. Can you do the french one? I can do the. Can you do the Italian one? I can do the German one.

In Germany. Say it.

You know, the Italian lib data stories. In Italian is tantia guri. And in French is, you know, just to keep the euro voices tradition. Right.

Something with like, bon anniversaire or something joyous.

Joy. Yeah. Cool. I think that's all for today. Good.

Congratulations, Enrico.

Congratulations, Moritz.

Do you have a cake? Do you have a cake?

I don't have a cake, but. Yeah, maybe I should say that. I mean, it's been great doing this. This thing with you and.

Yeah, absolutely.

I loved it. So let's see what happens in the next year.

Looking forward to. So here's to another 18 at least. Yeah, that's a big.

Yeah.

We're doing at least 18 this year. Okay.

Yeah, that's a benchmark. We have a benchmark we have to do. That's a promise, right? Promise for next year. At least 18. Another 18 episodes. Okay. I think that's all for today.

Cool.

Thanks a lot. But, yeah, take care.

Soon. Bye bye.

Bye. Bye bye.